Comments on halfsatori: GeeVees - 01.1: Theology of God's Name

It is like this... Said Iam Thatiam Once for All! ...

2011-10-11T17:57:09.158+02:00

It is like this... Said Iam Thatiam Once for All!

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@@@ IN-YOUR-TUBES: Wisdom Matrix ≡ Sahasrara Celestial Lifecycle Harvester

According to the pañcarātra injunction, only a hou...

2009-01-17T00:13:00.000+01:00

According to the pañcarātra injunction, only a householder brāhmaṇa can initiate. Others cannot.

So, obviously, these babajis and sannyasis giving pancaratric initation are violating pancaratra injunctions.

But, then again that only governs Pancaratrica diksha.

According to Mahaprabhu even a sudra can become guru, so obviously he was referring to what is called "bhagavati diksha" popularized by the Sankirtan movement of Sri Caitanyadeva.

Nama diksha can be given even by a sudra.
As long as the sudra got the mantra in a succession of devotees coming in the line of Mahaprabhu, it will have full effect.

Even you can get Nama diksha from a book, because a book authorized by the acharya is also technically within the realm of sabda-brahma.

Sabda-brahma is simply anything that conveys the proper spiritual conception and the books of the great Vaishnavas do that most efficiently.

Sabda-brahma is not necessarily auditory sound.
The writings of the goswamis and acharyas is also sabda-brahma.

Written language that conveys spiritual knowledge is certainly sabda-brahma in it's most efficient form.

A Vaishnava can initiate others through his writings.
The writings of the pure Vaishnava are non-different than his spoken word.

I wrote this 4 1/2 years ago

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2009-01-16T21:42:00.000+01:00

I wrote this 4 1/2 years ago

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From Sri Caitanya Charitamrita Madhya 24.331:

diksha-purascarya-vidhi apeksha na kare
jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

I was reading at a website of an ex iskcon guy from back in the 60's recently. While he was in India he became involved with other traditions within the Chaitanya school. He concluded that the power of a mantra is only present when it is received within a chain of gurus, anyone outside that chain who doesn't receive the mantra from that succession is receiving a dead mantra.

In other words he claims, as I guess many others do outside of the Gaudiya school, that if you attempt to connect to God through a mantra, God will not respond to that endeavor unless you received that mantra from baba booie such and such, who in turn received it from his guru baba louie and on and on.

In this conception we have the power of the mantra not within the control of God, but rather within the control of humans. In effect they are saying God is subordinate to the mantra, and more importantly, God's potency is subordinate to them. In this conception the mantra is not effective unless touched and transmitted by humans. Therefore the mantra cannot have power in and of itself. God is forbidden from empowering the mantra. He is locked out by the human chain of command.

In this way they have fashioned a theory of disciplic succession which conveniently leaves out all those who are not submitting to them as being keepers of the secret, as being fakes.

This is their central argument, if you are not connected to them, then your mantra is ineffective due to God having his hands tied, God needs a permission slip from some mantra wallah in Calcutta or Radha Kunda.

In various discussions from various schools of thought we often hear of the concept of the necessity of receiving the gayatri mantras from a preceptor in a lineage of mahants in order to delve into or receive the proper result desired, i.e such and such rasa.

Is this really the case ? Is a person's rasa with Radha Krishna dependent on receiving a specific mantra in a specific way from a specific person ?

My understanding is that the mantra is a tool for meditation. The revelations do not come from the mantra itself. By that I mean that Bhagavan is the revelator, independent of any rules concerning mantras. Bhagavan is revealing knowledge or not, with a specific mantra or without. Any mantra is subordinate to Bhagavan. And therefore a mantra is empty words unless Bhagavan participates in the mantra. No chain of command or person has the ability to empower a mantra. The empowerment of a mantra is not like a magical incantation, rather it is the Lord manifesting knowledge or experience to the sadhaka by divine choice, regardless of any other consideration.

The concept of the necessity of specific mantras from specific sources to realize a desired goal negates the role of the divine will. The divine will is made subordinate to a formulaic method of revelation, a magical incantation. By that I mean the divine will is the only thing which can reveal or hide desired jnana or experience. The formulaic idea is the same as that of the magical incantation which puts the power of the mantra squarely in the hands of the chanter. He will receive the desired goal if he follows the methodology given and will not receive the desired goal without that carefully followed methodology.

This is the magical or alchemical or kabbalistic approach to the divine. The belief that the divine will can be controlled by our actions or inactions is the essence of the magical, mystic alchemical path. Which posits our ability to control our own destiny based on our manipulation of words or concepts within our mind.

My understanding is that all revelation is divine providence. Regardless of any attempt utilizing mantra or tantra or any other esoteric tool. The reality is that we exist under the autocratic rule of the divine will and desire. In this concept any mantra or sadhana is essentially unnecessary if the divine will desires, or conversely, absolutely necessary if the divine will desires. The basic premise is that there are no absolute rules for revelation. Revelation is independent of all forms or systems utilizing the ascending process prescribed in any methodology from any school of mysticism or religion.

Of course there are those who will insist that the mantra is non different from the divine. With them I differ. The mantra is a tool of the divine, but the divine is not subordinate to the mantra. Just like if you insist that the mantra must be empowered by a guru, I also will insist that the mantra is not empowered itself but rather it is the divine will that is the relevant potency. Being an autocrat and supremely independent the divine will can do as it likes and all formulas are subordinate to this conception.

My understanding is that the empowered mantra is non different from Bhagavan if it is the desire of of the divine. It is the divine will which is the actual potency and revealer of all truths and all reality of whatever type. The mantra is not to be understood as a separate principle having a separate potency from the divine potency it represents.

We shouldn't think of any mantra as being the actual potent factor, that would leave the Personality of Godhead as a subordinate potency to the mantra. The mantra is potent only due to the Personality of Godhead manifesting to the chanter, without that, the mantra is no different then any other words.

The mantra is not empowered by a line of succession. It is not empowered by humans. A mantra is effective if the supreme will desires, and it is not effective likewise. The mantra itself is nothing without the divine will, a humans touch is irrelevant.

Whenever sastra advises taking the mantra from a bona fide guru, it is not the mantra itself that is being empowered by that guru. Rather it is the conception, the teaching that the guru imparts that is important. The mantra will be effective or not regardless of it's source. But what is important is the philosophical teaching that the guru provides along with the mantra. In this way the sadhaka is given a mantra that is invested with potency due to the the context it is given in.

In this concept a person need not take the mantra in a formal initiation from a specific lineage of unbroken succession in order for the mantra to be effective. Anyone can read or hear the proper teachings of the mantra and the associated philosophy and the mantra will be effective. The potency is not in the line of succession itself. The potency is the divine will helped along by the associated jnana or philosophy.

There are those who want to be the gatekeepers of the higher reality and they will use the methodology of the occult master i.e. "I have the secret whatever and it is here in this mantra or spell, and it is only effective if it comes from me or my lineage, directly handed to you".

There are many non Gaudiya Caitanya Saraswat vaisnavas who believe exactly these concepts. They criticize and belittle all and anyone who is not receiving mantras from them. They teach that without their touch, the mantras have zero potency. As silly as this is, it has attracted more then a few people away from the Gaudiya Saraswat tradition.

Didn't the Heiromonk in "The Way Of A Pilgrim" mee...

2009-01-16T18:37:00.000+01:00

Didn't the Heiromonk in "The Way Of A Pilgrim" meet a Sankirtan party in Moscow?

Well, I was being a little tongue in cheek, since ...

2009-01-16T14:02:00.000+01:00

Well, I was being a little tongue in cheek, since most Indio-philes love to point out how most aspects of modern culture have some kind of Hindu background.

If there is a temporal connection or not, the chanting of Names is an ancient tradition that has developed in many different religious traditions. One thing to note is that many Eastern Christian traditions hold the chanting a little 'closer to the breast' - it's not thrown out there but is fostered as a personal practice, and kept deeply personal. That said, the correlations are surprising... tho they do eschew the idea that the language of the prayer/mantra matters - instead they focus on the 'intention of the heart'. So none of that weird vibrational physics going on ;-)

Dave: I suppose he would be manifest just i...

2009-01-16T03:13:00.000+01:00

Dave: I suppose he would be manifest just in the form the devotee thinks of him, the name and the figure alike?

I haven't heard about a Russian connection, but I ran into some material about a very possible Sufi influence behind the sankirtan movement. The formulation itself is old pancaratra material, at least in Hari-bhakti-vilasa's sources it is.

2009-01-16T02:36:00.000+01:00

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2009-01-16T02:16:00.000+01:00

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2009-01-16T01:54:00.000+01:00

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Then, in principle, when the name of God is cha...

2009-01-15T22:45:00.000+01:00
Then, in principle, when the name of God is chanted, it is equal to being in God's presence and interacting directly with him.

While this may be true, I've always wondered in what mood God is present in His Name. Is it simply to be assumed that in it's purest form, the Name is full of madhurya-rasa?

There is an interesting corollary between Gaudiya's Nama theology and the Orthodox church's 'Jesus Prayer'. Even the stages of chanting are present in the Orthodox formulation: out loud, silent and finally 'with the heart'. I wonder if Chaitanya ever ran into any Russian starets?

Comments on halfsatori: GeeVees - 01.1: Theology of God's Name

It is like this... Said Iam Thatiam Once for All! ...

According to the pañcarātra injunction, only a hou...

I wrote this 4 1/2 years ago--------------...

Didn't the Heiromonk in "The Way Of A Pilgrim" mee...

Well, I was being a little tongue in cheek, since ...

Dave: I suppose he would be manifest just i...

Then, in principle, when the name of God is cha...

I wrote this 4 1/2 years ago

--------------...